Dungeonslayers: A Review

I have now run 3 games of Dungeonslayers and thought I would write up a review. The first two games went quite well, however some problems were uncovered in the third game.

All of the games I ran started with the sample adventure included with the core Dungeonslayers rules, the third went on to a second adventure. Minor spoilers of these adventures will be included in the review, as I feel I need to describe the situations the players were in to accurately describe the problems encountered.

The first game was run via IRC, with 2 players: A fighter and a black mage. The players quickly understood the rules and went through the first two encounters without issue, and had some trouble with the fight with the spider. After this session I was highly enthusiastic about DS and spent a great deal of time trying to find others to play with. I ran this one as a X-Crawl like game I’ve dubbed X-Slayers, adding in commentary and whatnot on the fly. This worked quite well.

I then ran a second, in person, session of DS. The party consisted of two black mages and a fighter. The party handled the first two encounters without issue, and again liked the quickness of combat. I ran this game straight out of the rulebooks. The only problems came from the poor ordering & layout of the DS rulebook, which made things hard to find on the fly. On the otherhand, I was pretty new to the system & this will hopefully be fixed in 4e.

My third game ran over the course of an afternoon and we got my further. One player arrived significantly before the others, and after rolling up a fighter we started the dungeon at my request, as I knew the first fight was very easy and I thought teaching the players the system one at a time would be simpler. He easily handled the rats in the beer cellar and levelled to level 2. Then the second player arrived. We quickly made up a gnome race for him (Dwarven racial
traits + elven stat choices) and he made a black mage. The players then entered the wine cellar and easily took out the rats, though the black mage took some damage. The players took easily to the system, and things seemed to be going well. Both players increased in level at around this point. The third player arrived and rolled up a white mage, healed the black mage and joined the adventure. The party explored the dungeon in a roughly clockwise direction, clearing out the weak rats before attacking the final battle, which I think is a good choice and probably a result of a good map. However during this time they levelled up to 3rd and 4th levels. The fighter put the vast majority of his stat points into defence, quickly getting into the 15-16 range. Given the rats low attack I could basically do no damage to him, so most fights involved him standing in the door of the rooms and the rats attacking him en mass 2 or 3 at a time, which the black and white mages casting spells past/at him. Even the final fight, were the small rats bypassed him and attacked the spellcasters did not offer much of a challenge, though this was in part due to poor dice luck on my part. There was a final fight with the spider, which I did a tiny bit of damage to the black mage, but at this point they were 4th & 5th level, the white mage having caught up to the black mage, and it offered little challenge. There was also a fair bit of confusion with the web attack of the spider: Does it stop the player from moving from location to location? Or does it paralyses them? Can spellcasters use magic while paralyzed? The game does not say they can or can’t. I would lean towards can’t, but a web makes me think of
trapped in place at the feet, not unable to move at all.
We then started a second adventure, Dungeon2Go #2: Tomb of the Witchking. The combats in this adventure have seemed much more challenging, so I think the ease at which the part went through the first adventure had to do with how quickly they levelled up on the rats. The players got through most of the adventure, which was primarily trap and puzzle based.

Based on this I’ve found a few points about the system I would like to mention:

-I very much like the combat mechanics: They are fast and simple, though critical hits took my players a bit to understand.

-Attack magic works just like an attack, so this also works pretty well.

-Most rounds the white mage had very little to do, having only 1 spell (Healing Hands) and the fighter not taking much damage. This is partly the players fault in my opinion for not taking a ranged weapon, even when offered one. This would hopefully improve with time as the characters get more spells.

-However the unlimited amount of healing makes damaging traps outside of combat pointless. This was very clear in the 2nd adventure as there were many of these present. These are a genre convention of the dungeon crawling genre and Gygaxian dungeons, so I would like to include them. I could go to deathtraps, but those have always felt unfair and cheap to me.
To put this another way, combat in Dungeonslayers is entirely tactical: Almost all consequence of the combat are negated at the end of it, therefore each and every combat is either a challenge in and of itself, or simply a source of experience for the characters. I prefer there to be at least some strategic elements: In D&D that is how much damage you take and how many spells you burn. Dungeonslayers does have some spells with long refresh times, however it remained a very tatical game, which appears to be a trend in RPGs.

-The identify spell, which gives all of the information about magic was used heavily by my players to bypass traps, as they would use it on statues and whatnot to find triggers, command words and whatnot. I’ve started compartmentalizing magic, like computer code, but I’m thinking of making it only work on magic items. When I write my own adventures I’ll also make more touch triggered traps to discourage this tactic, or magic traps that are protected by physical traps designed to hit those that try and read the instructions.

At this point I will include some comments from the player of the black mage,as he is quite well spoken and has phrased certain things better then I am able to:

“Well, ultimately any game comes down to two things. What you INTEND for the game to be like… And what the rules make the game like. The ethos of the game seems pretty straightforward. Going for a relatively high-fantasy setting, something akin to a rules-lite D&D but with their own added twist. Rules lite OLD D&D, make that.”

I agree with this: The game feels like fantasy, and it presents what it wants you to do with it very well.

“Solid ethos established. Definitely a strong high-fantasy setting, as established by the kind of spellcasters that they’ve made a pinnacle part of the game. For a system that goes for non-Vancian magic, this is actually one of the ones I’ve liked the best. Instead of relying on things like magical energy or whatnot, the spellcasters just have a limited capacity to hold the shape of a spell within them. They can then use it as often as they like. It’s novel, it’s refreshing, and it feels fairly good. There are problems with it in the system and with the magic system in general, but those can wait for a moment.”

I agree with this as well, and originally the magic system was one of the things that drew me to the game. I liked that spell casters would have something to do every round, and the spell delay times and system of switching from spell to spell seemed like a great idea. I found it a touch boring in my first couple of playthroughs, but figured this would improve as the players levelled up and got more spells.

“It’s nice to be able to roll a 1 and be happy about it.”

I can take this or leave it, I find the critical system a touch annoying, but that is a minor gripe. I do find the fact that since a 20 is always a failure, and you only add a second die when you need to roll 21 or higher makes there no practical difference between defence 19 and defence 20. Again a minor gripe.

“While classes specialize in particular leading roles, you can kind of think your way through most problems that you don’t have the skills for. It definitely encourages planning over rushing in.”

I did notice this a bit, though I think any well-run game can do this, regardless of system.

“Combat is relatively fast-paced and a comfortable fit.”
I have said this several times, though it is nice that the players agree with me.

However:

The Bad:
“The magic system, for all that it felt novel and fresh, needs some work. If you only get to learn so many spells, early decisions will be painful later in. This can be countered by spending ‘feats’ (edit to be whatever they’re actually called), but this punishes the wizard in a way that the fighter doesn’t get.”

I agree with this. I also noticed that it would be virtually impossible to have a decently versatile spellcaster who also knows a high level spell: A 20th level wizard who knows a 15 level spell can only know one or two other spells, and you have to delay taking big spells for levels and levels after you get then if you want to avoid ‘unlearning’ other spells. One of my favourite parts about classic D&D is the wizards constantly looking for more spells, and one of the
things I was looking forward two was a system that doesn’t punish you for memorizing ‘mount’ instead of ‘fireball’ or ‘haste’.

“Although this is more a complaint with the mods we played than the game itself, it does seem as if the game favours people who are familiar with fantasy RPG tropes. While this isn’t inherently a bad thing, As it rewards genre familiarity, It does tend to punish newcomers, which is not inherently a good thing in such a game.”

I think this is the sort of thing that the sample adventure should be for, and to some extent it does. It has a really hard to find bit of treasure, some easier to find treasure and similar things. Smart adventures should then notice that treasure can be hidden and look for more. I don’t really see a way around this, other then having players well, play more.

-Players level *very* quickly. In one day of play we were at 5th level or so. While I don’t think this is a bad thing, it meant that my players burned through the first adventure at way higher level then it expected. I think that rat XP needs to be reduced to 5-10 XP and Giant Rat XP needs to drop to 10-20. I think that 5XP for the rat and 10 for a giant rat would be much better. I think I might also add a house rule that each successive fight with a monster grant 1 less XP as you learn less from it. However that would require players to track how many of each monster they have killed, or at least how many battles, so it is not an ideal solution. Due to the XP system I found that fights with a lot of weak monsters were far less challenging then one large monster that could hurt the fighter, while at the same time granted far more experience. Reducing the XP for each additional creature in a group after the one that gives the most experience might be a good idea.

There we go, my first review. Sorry this post is so late, I got caught up in work and the associated 3000 km move.
Until next time, stay geeky!

–Cangeek

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My New Campagin: Modern Dungeon Crawling with Dungeonslayers

I’ve been thinking of running an online game of Dungeonslayers this summer if I can find enough interested players. I’m going to start putting more work into this once I am done exams (end of the week), but am starting to put thought into it during my study breaks.

I’ve been a fan of modern dungeon crawling ideas since I heard about XCrawl, though I was reasonably disappointed in the book and setting when I read them (Great ideas, poor implementation –though latter books improved it a fair bit) and have done some writing on the topic.

I was looking at the dungeons posted and was thinking that it might be fun to mix things up by adding in a modern twist.

I’ve started writing up a bit of background. I’ve used some ideas from X-Crawl, some of my own and random bits from a couple of other places.

Gladiatorial matches have long been a staple of the Empire. For years gladiatorial matches have been popular on television. Recently a small arena owner, bored of traditional events set up an obstacle course filled with lethal traps and several monsters in mini-arenas. The event was huge, and the sport of Dungeonslayers was born. The mazes quickly evolved into full blown dungeons, more monsters were added, each slayer has dozens of statistics tabulated and compiled after each dungeon and managers, bookies and fans pay pour over these numbers. Slayers start in simple dungeons made of plywood, scrap metal and concrete slaying rats and spiders, and if they live eventually face demons and dragons in recreation dungeons in front of live audiences of half a million. Guns are not allowed in the dungeons as it makes it far to hard to have a live audience, but a fair amount of other things are allowed.

Dungeons would be similar to normal, but the traps may use modern mechanisms and there is of course live commentary and occasional anachronisms. Guns are not allowed in dungeons as it makes it too hard to have live audiences. I am also thinking that a a late 80s-early 90s level of technology would work quite well- TV is big, possibly some BBSes, but less gadgets and whatnot for players to want me to rule on, while at the same time being familiar enough to me to be comfortable with it. Magic replaces technology in some instances, however due to black boxing no one really cares about which is which.

Any suggestions on using Dungeonslayers for this? Ideas for me to put in my dungeons? What about converting traditional fantasy dungeons to have a live-sports feel? Heck, would anyone be interested in playing? I’ve not worked out times or medium or whatnot yet, but I can start work on that once I have preliminary expressions of interest.

Well, sorry for the long gap between posts, school distracted me for a while. I’ll try to post more regularly after exams. I’ve got my first ever blog recommendation coming up, which I meant to write up oh, a few months ago and got busy. Anyway, until next time, Stay Geeky.

–Canageek

My Christmas Game

EDIT: A very, very helpful person (Thanks Chrysalis) on IRC has helped me clarify my post:

The game is a dungeon crawl gone reality TV show. Contestants enter the dungeon, slay monsters and disarm traps, while live and televised audiences look on and are helped on through the gripping action, the highs and lows, in a manner similar to sports commentary.

This means players are expected to supply their actions as sports commentary, a wild and gripping way to describe the action, but also embed inside little statistical information such as ‘The last time a Young Adult Red Dragon was felled in 3 rounds by a 5th level party was back in 1996 by the Sharpe Dressed Elves.

The rules that will be used are from Dungeonslayers. No prior rules knowledge needed to play the game and characters can be made on the spot. Character creation and playing involves things like ridiculous outfits, over the top stage presences and armour that shouldn’t work.

I am looking at 4-6 players for a one-off session before the 2nd of January, due to holiday constraints. The game will be run over IRC or via Maptools.

Original, less well organized post follows.

Hello all! Another self-interested post: I am going to run a game over either IRC or via Maptools sometime between when I post this and January 2nd. It would be a one shot adventure and I’ll just pick whatever day the most people will be free on. Likewise I’ll pick whichever platform people choose, and just post the map as you explore it to flikr or photobucket since it doesn’t use tactical combat.

I’ll be using the very nice looking Dungeonslayers rules as they look quite good for fast play, yet at the same time are quite slick and modern.

To recap my idea:

Anyway the idea is…. a dungeon crawling game loosely based on XCrawl, where modern day gladiators descend into D&D style dungeons to fight monsters and traps for the amusement of the audience. Little touches such as bonus experience for narrating your actions like a sports commentator will hopefully contribute to the atmosphere.

To make this more silly your game states would be your stats in world, tracked the same way that they do baseball stats. My Dad likes baseball because of all the stats you can track and the weird things that happen (For example there is one play, don’t as me what it is, that has only happened 3 times. 2 of them were on consecutive days, as some player heard about it and thought ‘Shoot, I could do that’ and managed to do it the next day.)
Now instead of batting average you have BAB or THAC0, and so on (I was going to give more examples, but I don’t know baseball stats). Instead of some odd play with passes and runners you have “The last time a Young Adult Red Dragon was felled in 3 rounds by a 5th level party was back in 1996 by the ‘Sharpe Dressed Elves’….”

Now I’m going to have it a bit more fantasy than I planned originally, so that I can use a modified form of the adventure that comes with the rules, since I’ve never run Dungeonslayers before. This updates the idea a little, with it being more heavily fantasy that I originally planned, however I’m sure I can find ways to keep the fact that you are throwing your lives onto the alter of television in your minds. Also, though it should be obvious, please don’t read the sample adventure.

If you want any more details or want to express interest in playing please leave a comment below, email or IM my gmail: username Canageek. (Don’t you love spam? Stupid bots)

Anyway, until next time (or I run this) Stay Geeky!

–Canageek

P.S. I’ve run this game, and it went quite well, though I only had two players. They both hit second level, just, and got about 1/4 to 1/2 way through the adventure. I’m looking to finish the adventure, though I’m not sure when I will have time: If I am very lucky and don’t have much work I might be able to doso on the weekend of Jan 8-9, 2010. Drop me a comment here if you are interested in playing.